Brassed Off Britannia

Brassed Off Britannia

For a moan about the state of Britain and the World

 

 

 

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:52 pm 
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Location: Holst country (to be different)
It appears that the Court of Human Rights has decided that we are wrong to deny prisoners the right to vote. Well bully for them.
Did this Kangaroo court find out if the prisoners doing the petitioning were voters before they went to prison?
There has not been any mention of compensation so far, but you can see our lawyer friends circling like sharks ready to feast on the meat. Perhaps they will be told that there will be no compensation, but like developers they will keep banging away until they get their shekels.
Let's see what colour Camerons cojones are now. Let him, hopefully, turn round and tell them 'it ain't not going to happen'. He and his pals were quick enough to cut Legal aid, which probably paid for the prisoners petition, let's see if he and his pals can do the right thing for a change.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:33 am 
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I have heard some mention in the news of compensation (a lawyer being interviewed) which, apparently, could be claimed by thousands of prisoners denied their hooman right to vote. What we'll get is ministers promising to fight the ECHR judgement, striving vigorously to persuade, rather than telling them where they can stuff it.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:57 pm 
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They been and done it again. The European Court of Human Rights has told us we were in breach of a thousand odd prisoners rights to refuse them the vote. Will we tell them to sod off or not. Another one for Diddy to announce his intentions on or maybe not and grab their vote as well.
Diddy for once just say, as we tell all the kids, NO.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:36 pm 
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As with everything else in the world its the fault of Cameron or Europe.

What I find bewildering is that if you want to be free of Europe, Cameron is your only chance. Not one of several chances but your ONLY CHANCE. If Labour wins the Election you have NO CHANCE. If the Conservatives change their leader (for instance Boris or George) you have NO CHANCE. If the likes of SNP or Plaid Cymru hold the balance of power you have NO CHANCE.

If UKIP hold the balance of power I admit its more complicated. The Conservative party will split and be out of office for a lifetime, and in my case if that means Miliballs taking the reins, I hope its a short lifetime.

What on earth is wrong with an attempt to re-negotiate followed by an in/out referendum? Could it be that you don't trust democracy?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:54 am 
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Wrong side of bed maybe.
I think if you look back through my posts you will see that i do not advocate leaving Europe. I just want to see someone with enough backbone in our government say NO to Europe and the courts of Europe just once or twice.
Back on your head.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:07 pm 
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Hook Dangler wrote:
What on earth is wrong with an attempt to re-negotiate followed by an in/out referendum? Could it be that you don't trust democracy?

NO, it's that many of us don't trust Cameron or the EU bureaucrats. Let's look back a mo to Wilson's (or was it Heath's) renegotiation of our terms of membership before the Common Market referendum. He gained all sorts of wonderful concessions, won the vote, and all the concessions evaporated overnight. Then there was Blair's great achievement of a complete reorganisation of the CAP in return for our surrendering a large chunk of the budget rebate. Cash surrendered and no change to CAP whatsoever. Cameron will make his case and concessions will be granted, each one, however small, dressed up as a major achievement. I suspect enough of the electorate will have forgotten their history and vote YES, and nothing will change. Ukip are calling for a referendum this year on the EU as it is (and will remain). If there's a chance that a strong showing by Ukip can give them sufficient influence to bring that about, I'll vote for it.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:35 pm 
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And who is the fool that thinks that the EU without serious reform has anything to do with democracy. Just ask yourself who runs the EU and when you have answered that ask yourself when you voted for them.
If anybody thinks that Cameron can achieve the impossible, that is that we get to vote for the commissioners, then they truly do live in cuckoo land. And that is why I will not vote for Cameron and his Chatarama group. Mind you I might not vote for any of the others either.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:10 pm 
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In case there is a misunderstanding there, Crom, when I said "I'll vote for it", I meant for Ukip, not for the EU.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:56 pm 
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Nope, no misunderstanding CC. You've made it quite clear where you stand on the EU, and I know you accept other peoples opinions as well.
Truth be told there would be nothing wrong with the EU if it hadn't been left to politicians to sort out. All any of them, and sadly for a lot of their supporters, all they can think of is the party and the power and not the necessity to think of others who do not necessarily support their point of view.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:54 pm 
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I think there's a lot wrong with the EU and the idea of it. Nation states are usually born in conflict, then moulded over centuries and generations into a common identity, common language and common ideals. They are not created by appointed bureaucrats in posh new palaces through secret deals and masses of regulations. A treaty between sovereign nations is an excellent idea, but a nation called Europe is a non-starter, corrupt to the core and bound to fail. Better to be on the outside when it does.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:36 pm 
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As you know, my view is diametrically opposed to yours. Whatever deal Cameron is able to achieve, we are better off inside the EU, seeking to improve it, than outside whingeing and dreaming of former glories. I think we are incredibly lucky in getting the chance to secure our future.

Never forget, that because of our enormous population relative to size, we rely absolutely on trade. We can't go back to living on mushrooms and eating the family cow once a year. You have this almost pathetic faith in the former Empire. They've forgotten us CC, we're a footnote in their history.

We must do as we've always done, re-invent ourselves. You may remember years ago (probably FUME) I used to bang on about the Hanseatic League.

Worth another look.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:50 pm 
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cromwell man wrote:
Wrong side of bed maybe.
I think if you look back through my posts you will see that i do not advocate leaving Europe. I just want to see someone with enough backbone in our government say NO to Europe and the courts of Europe just once or twice.
Back on your head.


Back on my head indeed. Why must you insult every time you post? Why do you never suggest anything positive? Why do you never post ideas, merely mock other people's attempts to find an answer?

I've had some very very bad news about Jo tonight and I think I'll back off for a while, perhaps for good. Cheers all of you.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:32 am 
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cromwell man wrote:
Truth be told there would be nothing wrong with the EU if it hadn't been left to politicians to sort out. All any of them, and sadly for a lot of their supporters, all they can think of is the party and the power and not the necessity to think of others who do not necessarily support their point of view.

Crom, I really don't understand your point of view.

(1) ....all they can think of is the party and the power. Well yes, but the party is what enables our democratic system to work: if all MPs were independents, or if the whips were abolished, chaos would ensue, and we would need super-Churchillian leadership to get anything done at all. And it's no good complaining that politicos put party before country: they want the power because they believe their party's policies are in the country's best interests. That's true in all the major democracies, even those habitually relying on multiple coalitions.

(2) ......necessity to think of others who do not necessarily support their point of view. But how can anyone honourably support two positions at once, their own and their opponents'? The parliamentary system - committee stages etc - is supposed to examine all angles before legislation is enacted: a few might change their minds, and individual MPs can be neutral in representing their constituents' interests, but basically the majority party in the House will decide the direction of government. That's our brand of democracy: governments can't come to a standstill because others disagree.

(3) In an earlier post, you suggest that we remain in the EU, yet you also lament the lack of national leaders prepared to challenge or flout EU regulations. So you want to be in the club, but still be free to break its rules? Yet you are dismissive of Dave, who wants to renegotiate the rules before holding a referendum on membership. I find your comments very confusing.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:14 am 
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Cumberland Cockney wrote:
I think there's a lot wrong with the EU and the idea of it. Nation states are usually born in conflict, then moulded over centuries and generations into a common identity, common language and common ideals. They are not created by appointed bureaucrats in posh new palaces through secret deals and masses of regulations. A treaty between sovereign nations is an excellent idea, but a nation called Europe is a non-starter, corrupt to the core and bound to fail. Better to be on the outside when it does.

I agree with much of this, CC, but not all of it. In particular, I'm disappointed to read "a nation called Europe is a non-starter". Europeans have been at one another's throats since time immemorial: after the devastating conflicts of the 20thC, the time was ripe for a more radical effort at achieving harmony, as past peace treaties between sovereign nations have proved to be written in water. The problem with the EU, as I've said so often before, is that politicians have tried to achieve in two generations what might more reasonably be achieved in ten. But surely one can hope that cohesion is not impossible?

And "....bound to fail. Better to be on the outside when it does." Well, we've escaped the eurozone, which is currently the most significant 'failure'. But unpicking the rest of our membership might well prove costly - we would not know the terms of continuing trade with EU until well into the exit process, and this makes a rational decision about Brexit all but impossible. But in any case China and India (and perhaps Brazil and Mexico) are set to become the economic giants of the future: is this the moment to dissociate ourselves from continental Europe, especially with Scotland tugging to break free of England? Merkel and her "Nein!" will not last for ever, and positive collaboration with Germany and other northern European countries looks a better prospect than sailing the Atlantic alone with neither shore as close allies.

Of course there's a lot wrong with the EU. But grass-roots pressure for change is building in many European countries, and their politicians cannot ignore it much longer - consider Greece. Is it not better to be a powerhouse in the movement for change than to turn our backs and hope for the best? My worry is that, come Dave's referendum, Brits will simply want to two-finger the present rotten set-up in Brussels instead of looking at the bigger picture.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:21 am 
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Hook Dangler wrote:
I've had some very very bad news about Jo tonight and I think I'll back off for a while, perhaps for good. Cheers all of you.

I'm sorry to hear of your bad news, Hooky. I hope things will work out OK. But please don't deprive us permanently of your insights and straight-talking.


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